A Dialogue Concerning Casting

May, 2004, Beijing

Tang Xin：How long did it take from your original idea to the completion of the performance project?

He Yunchang：The project was initiated in July 2002 and finally carried out in March 2004. It took more than one year nearly two years. The first time you contacted me was the end of 2002. I just had the idea then.

Tang Xin：Some Chinese and international artists have previously made similar performances in a closed space like this. The pattern is more or less the same though intentions differed. What is your original intention of making such a performance?

He Yunchang：In recent years, I have been fond of taking cement as the material of my art creation. In this project, I expected to connect my body and the cement in a closer way, which is my original intention. Another reason is that I am afraid of darkness since I was a kid. Even now I'd still like to keep the light on when sleeping. I am really scared of darkness. I'd rather keep every moment of each day, hopefully 28 hours, all bright, like sleeping, dreaming, walking, or shutting the door. I am afraid of darkness especially when getting in or out of the room. I just feel uncomfortable when in darkness. In this performance, the outside world is completely separated. That links to me. I just feel like making a project that is closely connected with myself.

Tang Xin：The implementation time of the performance art is very important. That is your second 24-hour performance.

He Yunchang：Time is a key factor in the performance. How long a performance takes is the same important as how it is completed. I set the time based on both the way in which the performance is completed and the intensity that the performance requires. Certain intensity is fine but it is not necessary to reach the extreme. That would be an extreme practice if I stayed in the cement for one week, which is not necessary. I think one day is a basic time unit. It is not too short as one hour or ten minutes or too long as one month, one year or ten years. There is 24 hours in a day, 30 days in a month and 12 months in a year. That is the law of the nature. 24 hours from sunrise to sunset is a natural time unit and concept. So I set the time as 24 hours.
Tang Xin：What would happen if the space inside the cement were even smaller?
He Yunchang：In my original plan, the space is very small. I only planned a range of 10cm to stretch. Since I started talking to you about this project, I have felt kind of depressed, thinking that I would be staying in a small and dark space. So I intended to be a bit better to myself and made the space bigger, and a little bigger. The space is actually an element that challenges my physical and psychological endurance. I also took into consideration of the outside space. Suppose bulky cement is put in a gallery with nothing but a live man inside. It will be interesting. The inside space was actually much bigger but it did not weaken the performance.

Tang Xin：The title of your solo exhibition is " He Yunchang's Persistence". One of the characteristics of your work is continuously repetitive. What were you mostly focused on during the process of persistence?

He Yunchang：I feel that if someone is very focused on a minor thing for some while, we can say that he is persistent. Maybe he did not think about anything and just lived on as everybody does. I still feel it is kind of persistence. In my performance, you may find some slight internal change in different stage. All the changes are connected with myself. For example, in my previous work, I paid special attention to the individual will because I thought it made sense and was good. Later I had some other ideas in some other aspects. Recently apart from special attention to the minor changes in the performance techniques, materials and pattern of performance, I am more focused on the individual will. I'd like to do what I like and do not feel like being restrained by the routine. Some ideas may be logical and some may be not. From the psychological perspective, that is freedom. I really feel physically and psychological at ease when doing things with free will.

Tang Xin: What did you feel in the 24 hours from entering the space; cement casting to finally getting out of the space?

He Yunchang：It can be divided into several stages with very strong feelings. I felt very lonely even before I got into the cement space. I had to stay in the space designed by myself and cast with the help of other people. That was what I wanted to do but I still felt kind of lonely. When entering the space, I could do nothing but enduring. I felt very nervous and uneasy. Workers fixed the steel board with annoying noise. I tried to cool down a bit. Then they began to pour cement. I thought it would only take three or four hours but they kept casting nearly twenty tons of cement for ten hours or so. At that time I felt very strained because the impact is very strong and the noise is awful. The hand-made steel board was distorted due to the heavy pressure of damp cement. I was always worried that there could be no time for rescue if the steel board collapsed. I started to feel cold after mid-night. Water was dripping from the leaky steel board, almost everywhere. It was very annoying when water dripped onto my body. Having nothing on, I felt very cold and had to stay warm from running, moving and jumping. Drips stopped at almost 7:30 in the morning when I felt so exhausted and sleepy. It was 9:30 when I woke up from a 2-hour sleep. The cement starts to feel hot. I felt like in a sauna until I got out. So first I felt nervous, then cold and then hot. Finally I was out.

Tang Xin：What did you learn from such an experience?

He Yunchang：In the closed space, I sometimes sat peacefully for meditation. I had to first get used to the environment and found something appealing inside, like what I can do there. The space was fine and very quiet. I felt that the outside world had nothing to do with me. So I tried to keep a peaceful mind. Usually I am fussy about a lot of things. This is not good and that is bad too. But when I got out, I feel that everything is just fine. You really don't have to be fussy about anything. So I feel very excited.

Tang Xin： Facing darkness inside, were you psychologically prepared for that? Were you afraid when inside? After you got out?

He Yunchang：I felt it was no big deal. But I am still afraid of darkness, or maybe dislike darkness. If there were light, I'd rather live under the light.

Tang Xin: The performance art usually requires the artist to take control of the performance process. After you completed the performance and got out of the cement, you turned a somersault. Was it because you were so happy for the completion of the performance?

He Yunchang：Since the performance was completed, I just wanted to stretch myself. It is quite natural and has nothing to do with the performance. For such a performance, I think it is not good to design how to take control of my body and emotion before hand. If I were in a bad mood, I certainly would think about how to control my body and emotion. During this performance, I did not masturbate. Well, I still quarreled with people. I think I have taken myself under control and have done better than I expected.

Tang Xin: What did you want to do the most when you got out?

He Yunchang：I was asked the same question when I got out of the cement. My then answer is to smoke and drink. Actually at that time I just felt that everything would be fine as long as I could get out of there. It is just fine even to do nothing but only stand there. I did not realize that before but now I think lots of my time has been wasted.

Tang Xin：As a performance artist for so many years, what do you think about sense of performance and the human body that is taken as the material for the performance?

He Yunchang：The sense of performance is your physical reaction during the process. Why you feel more performance elements is that you pre-define more. If the performance failed to meet the pre-defined intensity, you might as well make some interesting self-defined actions purposely to enhance the sense of performance. Moreover, if you are satisfied with a certain performance or making some repetitive movements based on others' requirement, it is still fine thought it might appear so showy. I'd like to put myself in a self-defined environment. My emotion is thus react instinctively under such a specific environment and circumstance. The sense of performance will appear to be designed or repetitive.

Tang Xin：In your performance, the object you choose to confront is usually natural and non-artificial object, such as mountains and rivers. How do you generally choose your object of confrontation?

He Yunchang：First all my performance ides link to myself. The materials I choose is usually what I prefer or get long familiar with. I grew up in Yunnan Province and had many chances to touch the nature. So my previous performances are often made outdoors. Gradually the artist will get used to various environments and accumulate his experiences. Then he can extend to the maximal freedom and expand his performance without being restrained by conditions. Later he will choose some other materials that he is familiar with, interested in, indulged in or prefers. I think the cement just fits in with me. Many people might have used cement but our methodologies are different. I think it is quite necessary to differentiate yourself in the material selection and utilization.

Tang Xin：Literally, your performance is abstract and continuously repetitive. As a performance artist for so many years, what is the most important in your performance?

He Yunchang：I think my own feeling and idea is the most important. Because I think as an artist-either a painter, dancer or a musician, he has chosen this style of life and work so he had to give up many other things and possibilities. He may lose other abilities and sacrifice a lot in a long term. I think it means a lot to me if I am working on something, something real, that I am so interested in and desire to do. How to make the work better is based on partially my professional habit and partially the originality that I am always indulged in. You said my works are abstract but actually they all derive from my real life experiences. Some may derive from a detail of life and some may be a partial social phenomenon. But they touched and inspired me. Maybe they are just your accumulated life experiences for so many years. You make a performance and always try to maintain elements that you expect to embody. The performance art has a history of dozens of years. For us, it is certainly difficult to do. So we shall take it seriously.

Tang Xin：What do you think is the most irreplaceable in your work?

He Yunchang：That is the uniqueness of the work, i.e. what we called originality. If I had the same idea with someone else at the same time, such a coincidence would be very disappointing. But sometimes it is inevitable. I think the uniqueness and irreplaceability makes the work new and original. It is neither a duplicate of himself nor that of the other people. Another point is the core of the work. If today I were still working on some ideas from yesterday without any change of the core, that would be something really sad to me. Because there may, for a period of time, exist consistent originality or something persistent, in an artist's style which makes his works last. But I still think I should keep discovering something new in parallel with the originality.

Tang Xin：It is very difficult to keep the works original and irreplaceable because we all get similar information, experiences and knowledge from personal life and the society. The way of expression too can be similar. For example, many foreign artists have made performances in a closed space like this. Though reasons vary, the way of performance is similar. People may think that they have seen the performance somewhere else.

He Yunchang：The technique and original intention are different. As far as I am concerned, nobody else has blocked himself in the cement. Their performance may be easier, more controllable, or maybe they can open the door and get out of the room by themselves. But in my performance, I cannot get out by myself. That is what I called "irreplaceability" in my performance. Moreover, the sense of performance is decreased to zero. For other performance artists, they can be seen. But in my performance, nobody knows what I have done inside. I can say I have done this or that. I may lie since everything is concealed. The sense of performance was down to zero. Thirdly, psychological endurance is different. I suspended communication with the outside world. Audiences do not know what is going on inside. They need to endure the same psychological tension as I do. When they saw the performance, they would say, "a live man is blocked in the unbreakable cement and I know his name is he Yunchang and what is going on there". Some audiences that do not know me would also feel the pressure and tension. I think that is also contributive to the irrepleacablity of the performance.

Tang Xin：Have you designed the audiences' feeling? Is such a feel what you actually conveyed to them or pre-defined subjectively?

He Yunchang：I took the audiences' feeling into my consideration. The reasons why I made this performance is partially that I am afraid of darkness since my childhood and partially that I fancy the close contact between the cement and my body. The more I thought, the clearer the performance turned to be. First, the individual will is enhanced in the performance. That means even the unbreakable cement cannot restrain an individual's mind. Blocked inside, I could not break the obstacles with my own strength. Neither could I change the time I set through merely physical or psychological adjustments. I am just an ordinary man who has to confront such obstacles with my spirit and perseverance. Such kind of will is even stronger than the cement. Moreover, in my previous performance, audiences can see the entire process and all that I have done. The intensity of obstacles and resistance that I set as well as my radical physical movements impressed the audiences with exaggerated visual and psychological impact. But this performance is completely different. The impact of the performance imposed to the audiences is mainly psychological because the performance is decreased to zero. People can see me getting in and out but that is not part of my performance. The real process is invisible to anyone. Some people suggested that I install a video camera inside the cement with the excuse that everybody is doing like that. But I refused. Does every performance have to make sense? I don't think so.
Tang Xin：What do you think is the strongest personal style in your performance?
He Yunchang：The individual will is continued in my performance. That has become my personal style that cannot be wiped off and has existed in my performance since ten years ago. I think a strong mind is now becoming more and more indispensable. It could be some imagination about myself. Maybe we usually take great efforts just for something that is purely illusory.